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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 April 2025
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Displaying 1206 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

With all due respect, minister, I think that you are slightly underplaying this. The convener of the Finance and Public Administration Committee—Mr Gibson, who has been at the Parliament for 26 years—appeared before us last week and said that his committee finds it very difficult when that type of financial memorandum is issued and it cannot undertake detailed scrutiny. I think that his words were that none of that legislation should come to the Parliament. How do you respond to his comments?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Good morning, minister. One of the comments that your colleagues make when a framework bill comes to the Parliament—particularly those that we have had recently—is that they want to consult and design the scheme with stakeholders. Thus, they want more to come under secondary legislation so that we can have that flexibility. Why can that co-design, which is a good thing, not be done before the legislation comes to Parliament? Everyone will then know what stakeholders think, although there are often different views among stakeholders, and then Parliament can come to a view. Why does that have to happen after the primary legislation has been passed?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I am not quite sure that you have answered my question. Why can the co-design not happen first, so that the Parliament gets to scrutinise that? What is the benefit to the Parliament, to legislation and to good law if that co-design happens first?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Do you think that one of the reasons why the Government got itself into an issue with the health and social care bill was that the co-design was going to be done once the legislation was passed but many voices were telling us different things? In retrospect, do you think that it would have been better for more detail to have been found about that bill at an earlier stage, so that Parliament could have come to a view on it, rather than moving it or kicking it into the long grass?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Yes.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

That is an interesting philosophical question, which might be for another day.

I will move on. As you will be aware, one issue with secondary legislation is that we have to take it or leave it—we vote for it or we vote against it. We can make comments but, ultimately, the power that Parliament has is to say yes or no. Some witnesses have suggested that there should be an ability to amend secondary legislation or have the ability to conditionally approve it. For example, that might allow us to say, “We like 98 per cent of this, but we have real concerns about 2 per cent. Would the Government look at that again and bring forward a fresh view on it?” Could that approach work? Would the Government be open to it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

My question is for Jonathan Jones in the first instance. On the presumption that we can have some understanding of what a framework bill is, would it be helpful to have guidelines or an agreement between the Government and Parliament on how such bills should be dealt with and a governing framework that would ensure that both parties could work constructively together? Is that possible?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Has that been thought about in Wales? Is it something that you are thinking of taking forward?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

Mr Jones, from a UK or Westminster perspective, we hear about co-design as well. Does that take place post or pre a framework bill being passed?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Jeremy Balfour

I have a very brief question before you depart.

As you pointed out, secondary legislation cannot be amended—it is either accepted or rejected. It has been put to us that there should be some way in which a committee could seek conversations with the Government about amending secondary legislation or flag up that, for example, it agrees with 80 per cent of an instrument but has concerns about 20 per cent of it. The committee could ask the Government to go away and think about the issue again. Would that work, or is it something that sounds good in theory but, in practice, might not help?