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I am always grateful for your interventions, because they are always a novel and exciting experience. I really did not think that we would manage to cover bin collection as part of our consideration of the Education (Scotland) Bill, but we have done.

To answer your question directly, I am sure that you would agree that, when it comes to leadership qualities, one of the most important aspects relates to succession. For the reasons that I have outlined, given that we are talking about a period of office that is non-renewable, anyone who has an eye on their passions as a leader being sustained in the future will want to build in a lot of work on succession. That is one of the qualities of leadership that I would look for most in recruiting a chief executive for any body.

I think that seven years is a reasonable period. It is long enough to ensure strategic continuity and impact and to provide for succession, but it is also limited enough to allow for fresh leadership at appropriate intervals. I am pretty keen on there being lots of leaders and lots of opportunities for leaders. No one should read anything into my comments in that regard as relating to any other sphere.

Such an approach is consistent with the approach that is taken to other senior public appointments in Scotland and beyond. It represents a safeguard against politicisation—I worried about pronouncing that word the moment I wrote it—against the entrenchment of authority and against the dilution of challenge. Those are important points.

The bill as introduced is largely silent on those matters. It creates a new body and defines its functions, but I want it to go further than that. I want it to clearly describe the expectations with regard to the people who will hold critical leadership roles. I return to the key principle at stake, which I mentioned in my previous remarks to the committee—that of trust. The public will not judge the new agency by its legal structure alone; they will judge it by its conduct, its openness and the way in which its staff interact with learners, educators and the broader system. If we are serious about having a new start and making a clean break from the SQA’s legacy, we cannot afford to be casual about the internal ethical framework of the new agency.

My amendments seek to address precisely that issue. They seek not to burden the organisation with bureaucracy but to equip it with the ethical scaffolding that is necessary for integrity and accountability. Therefore, I urge my colleagues on the committee to support amendments 221, 222 and 223. I think that they are moderate, principled and constructive proposals that would strengthen the foundation on which qualifications Scotland is built. I ask the Government to consider whether the bill in its current form goes far enough to underpin and guarantee the operational culture that we all know is needed to serve the best interests of Scotland’s learners and educators.

We are always grateful for the illumination that you bring to my amendments.

That is correct. Thank you for clarifying my own amendment. Yes, there is an “or” at the end of paragraph (c)(ii). I am trying to illustrate the significance of both of those requirements. To go back to John Mason’s quest for perfection earlier, we would all agree that it would be ideal if someone had all those qualifications, but we definitely want someone who has some experience of the regulatory environment relating to educational qualifications or some experience in public sector governance. You are absolutely right.

As I said, the issue is of profound significance, because one of the clearest criticisms that has been levelled at the SQA has been about the lack of transparency and accountability in its internal structure. In Professor Muir’s report, “Putting Learners at the Centre”, he made clear that a culture of defensiveness and lack of openness has been allowed to grow, leading to a perception of unaccountability and remoteness from the educational community. My amendment is an attempt to nail down that the chief executive would be someone who is very connected to, not remote from, the educational community.

Amendment 222 would build on that principle by ensuring that the chief executive

“demonstrates a commitment to the values of openness, transparency and accountability”.

I will unpack the amendment for the committee’s consideration. It would require qualifications Scotland to have

“clear and accessible ... decision-making”.

It would ensure

“that standards and assessments in relation to relevant qualifications are subject to appropriate scrutiny”,

and it would place in statute a requirement to engage with relevant and important viewpoints.

There would also be an obligation in law to

“publish data, reports and decisions in relation to the exercise of ... Qualifications Scotland’s functions”

and to

“respond appropriately to developments in ... education policy ... the needs of children, young people and other persons undertaking a relevant qualification”

and

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That last point is a big if, is it not? I accept that, but I do not accept that it is impossible, on a quid pro quo, to move one set of resources to another place. I understand the employment issues, but I would like to see the granularity of why on earth it would cost—what figure did you give?

John Mason will know, including perhaps from our other conversations, that I believe that the critical issue in Scotland, as is the case elsewhere in the United Kingdom and globally, is that of leadership. Leadership is much more than what is conventionally thought of as leadership, and the character and quality of leadership is the defining issue. We see that in schools in particular. Where you have a tremendous school leader, you have a tremendous school, regardless of any other externalities. Frankly, we do not spend enough time in any of this Parliament’s committees, or in the chamber, debating and discussing the need to deepen the leadership skill base in our country across all sectors.

I do not disagree with what John Mason said, but I do not want to create structural issues that will lead to the continuation of some of the matters that are connected to the SQA and that have arisen in the past few years. Those are issues that led the Government to decide that it was going to abolish the SQA and replace it. I do not want us to simply change the name plate on the door or the building. It would be a failure of leadership on our part not to grasp the issues that are before us and do something positive about it through the bill. At the moment, we are not doing enough that is positive through the measures that are proposed.

Amendments 122 to 125 and 132 to 139 seek to remove the provisions that tether the accreditation committee to qualifications Scotland. Most notable of those is amendment 133, which I strongly support. Amendment 133 would provide for the accreditation committee’s annual reporting to be done independently, as I think that Pam Duncan-Glancy mentioned, rather than as part of qualifications Scotland’s corporate reporting cycle. That is vital. A body cannot be both the subject and the author of its own regulatory assessment. That is common sense. The amendment would ensure transparency and avoid the consolidation of narrative control within one body.

Amendment 134, which pre-empts amendment 135, seeks to clarify that the Scottish ministers should not have the power to direct the accreditation committee’s operational decisions. It is another safeguard for independence; indeed, I think that the cabinet secretary has picked up—and rightly so—on the mood music with regard to the need for any changes to be seen as ensuring that independence.

The OECD warned that the current ecosystem of policy delivery and oversight in Scottish education creates confusion over roles and a risk of conformity of thought in national decision making. Empowering an accreditation committee to act independently would be an antidote to such a tendency.

Amendment 173, which I support, completes the picture, as it seeks to create a new independent accreditation committee, which would be placed under the chief inspector. That committee would not be subject to direction from either the inspector or ministers in its operational work, only in high-level framework setting. It would be composed of experts, produce its own reports and make its own decisions on whether qualifications are fit for purpose. That is real independence—not performative independence, but procedural, structural and cultural independence.

Amendments 73, 287, 291, 292, 295 and 167 would make the necessary consequential adjustments to the rest of the bill by removing references to internal accreditation committees and eliminating redundancy and contradiction.

Finally, amendments 206 and 207 seek to amend the transitional provisions. I support amendment 206, which would ensure that legacy language regarding the SQA’s accreditation powers does not survive the transition. I encourage the committee—I should be using the word “encourage”, as I do not have a vote—to oppose amendment 207, which would dilute the clean break that we seek to achieve.

I want to make one final observation. This debate is not just about qualifications—it is about values. It is about whether we, as a Parliament, are prepared to ensure that the systems that we design are worthy of the people whom they serve. The calls for reform were not abstract; they came from learners, teachers, school leaders, parents and employers, all of whom wanted a system that they could trust. Professor Muir reflected that when he said that

“The replacement of SQA and the restructuring or reform of Education Scotland is a starter, but ... more is needed to ensure that the education system in Scotland is fit for purpose for current and future learners in a changing world.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 23 March 2022; c 3.]

Accreditation is not a mere technical detail in the context of the bill. It is, I would argue, one of the firm and substantial issues that the committee at stage 2 must deliberate and decide on. It is the measure by which every learner’s work is validated, and it is the reason that employers, universities and society at large take a Scottish qualification seriously. If we do not get this right, we undermine the credibility of the entire reform programme.

The Government has said that it wants a qualification body that is modern, trusted and fit for purpose, but that cannot be achieved by merging old functions under new names. It requires structural separation; it requires clear, independent lines of scrutiny; and it requires the courage to follow the evidence, even when the evidence demands fundamental change. That is what my amendment 316 and this suite of amendments does, and that is why I commend them to the committee.

For heaven’s sake, we are all politicians. We do not have the idea that we are going to come up with the perfect solution on anything that we discuss. Things change—the landscape changes—and we should not let perfection get in the way of being pragmatic. What I hope to see as a result of this debate is pragmatic consideration being given to fulfilling what Professor Ken Muir said and to what was at the heart of his report, which was that there should be a separation of accreditation and awarding functions.

In his report, Ken Muir goes on to say that having the same body advise on, develop and accredit qualifications lets it “mark its own homework”—he actually uses that phrase. When he appeared before the Education, Children and Young People Committee some time ago, when I was a member of the committee, he went to great lengths to underscore his concerns. That is not a sustainable foundation for any public institution, especially when it has such a pivotal role in shaping educational and professional opportunities across Scotland and everything that hangs on those.

Amendment 316, in my name, is designed to correct that. It proposes that the accreditation function be removed entirely from qualifications Scotland and instead be invested in the chief inspector of education, a post that the bill seeks to establish as a genuinely independent office. That is why I am delighted to support and add my name to many of the amendments that have been lodged by Willie Rennie in that area. By nature and design, the chief inspector would be an evaluator rather than a deliverer. Placing accreditation within the inspectorate would ensure institutional separation between the awarding of qualifications and the setting of standards by which they are approved.

The cabinet secretary makes a lot of valid points, but I simply point out that we are at stage 2 of an education bill in which we, as a Parliament, have to consider a set of options by which we deliver on the expert stakeholder view that there needs to be a separation of accreditation and awarding of qualifications.

No, no.

The danger or risk of going down that road is that we do not have the meaningful consideration that Jackie Dunbar alluded to and that now needs to take place when we have these amendments before us. Have you calculated that that is a risk that you are prepared to take?

Yes.

Can you repeat that?